Interview with L2

Conducted 10/11/2015 10am
I
n the class room
L2 is one of the tutors of Class1

[…]

LE: To begin with would you like to tell me from which Aboriginal nation you are and what cultural background- what your cultural background means to your job? You don’t have to do this.
L2: Ok. That’s fine. E::hm () I was born in in Moree in the north-west of New South Wales and it ehm ehm my family are from ehm around the Moree area ehm a few different little towns there, Narrabri, Gurley Station ehm a::nd depen- Because it’s such a large country depending on who you talk to is how the name of the nation, the language group is pronounced. Ehm so my elders taught me Gomeroi. In most English ehm readings or pronunciations you will see Kamilaroi ehm but there is no K in our language and the K actually sounds like a G. And some people will also say Gamilaraay ehm and Gamilaroi. So there is there is quite a few different pronunciations but it’s the second largest Aboriginal nation in New South Wales but it also crosses over the border into Queensland because Aboriginal nations had different borders to what the ehm colonial government did. Ehm
(LE: ok)
L2: What was the rest of the question? @(.)@
LE: E::hm what does your cultural background mean to you in your job?
L2: Ehm () It means everything becau::se I () ehm am able to:: relate to what I’m teaching. () Ehm I’m able to remember the stories of my elders to what academics have researched and written. Ehm I’m able to put a number of social justice issues in context. For students. Ehm () a:nd I do remember a long time ago that a student said to me:: ehm I’m here to learn about Aboriginal health, not your family. And I said to the student that my family is Aboriginal health. Ehm and I think it makes learning easier if it’s in a personal context &&
LE: mhm (positive) () ok, e::hm, so what in your opinion is the most effective form of teaching and learning? () () Or which method?
L2: @Storytelling@
(LE: ((laughs)))
L2: Ehm as an Aboriginal person, storytelling is very, very important. Ehm that’s how we learn traditionally. Was from the Dreaming stories and the storytelling. A::nd quite often I’m able to () tell a story about each topic ehm that that we discuss in class.
LE: mhm (positive) Ehm () So would you say that’s also the most important aspect about how you teach?
=L2: Yes! Yeah I think so, yeah. And () and not ehm () and I guess being part of the group rather than in front of the group.
(LE: mhm (positive))
L2: Ehm and ehm most teachers have a table set up at the front of the room and separate themselves from their students. () Ehm and even though I’m qualified to teach ehm or facilitate tutorials or give lectures e::hm I find that sitting amongst the students I learn so much from the students as I’m- yeah () ()
LE: Ok () ehm so you already mentioned storytelling – is there any other methods you use in class, you consciously decide to use?
L2: I haven’t used them much lately ehm () but ehm but the majority of Aboriginal people are visual learners a::nd I love concept maps () where () you just write in a circle in the middle of your paper or board the topic and then out from that circle will come just one or two words that relate to that topic. And then you can look at it and you can see the big picture a::nd ehm that’s how I studied. […] So, so yeah visual learners very important as well as storytelling yeah.
LE: mhm (positive) yeah. In the student interview that I’ve already done ehm the student also said ehm she rea- she noticed that we watch a lot of ehm YouTube videos, so
(L2: Hm, yes, yes)
LE: I guess that’s also visual learning
L2: Yes yeah so […] that was the one that we always watched the new TV series
(LE: mhm (positive))
L2: Which only ran for 23 minutes e:hm and it gave the students ehm some idea of Aboriginal youth today.
LE: mhm (postive))
L2: Ehm and some of the issues that they might face.
LE: () () ok so ehm are there any differences between how you teach our class and other classes?
L2: No.
LE: All the same. Ok.
L2: No:: I’m I’m the same whether it’s Class 1 whether it’s ehm () well, maybe there is a little difference. Ehm if I’m teaching education students only – ehm I’ve taught Indigenous education policies and issues for a third year class – ehm so I will tend to provide more ehm of my experiences as an Aboriginal teacher and teaching in a school that was ehm from five years to 18 years ehm with 98 per cent of the students Aboriginal. So I’d give them some – put their their teaching into context again. Yeah so that would that would probably be the only differences
(LE: Ok)
L2: and if it was a health class I’d relate more to to the health in my family so it depends on () the topic, I guess, of the subject.
LE: mhm (positive) ok. A:::nd would you say tha:t your classes are different from other classes here at the Institute or other classes at the university in general?
L2: () () () I:: I can only ehm () () go by what I’ve experienced. And I would say that my classes are less formal @(.)@
LE: @ok@
L2: And ehm more ehm more about a group of people coming together and sharing some information and having a joke and e::hm () ehm I gue:ss I would see it as myself as an auntie looking after the kids and sharing the knowledge with them {Click here for analysis}.
LE: @mhm(positive)@
L2: rather then, you know, a formal teaching () ehm and ehm yeah so that’s how I’d see that yea::h
  […]
LE: () () ok () The next is a:: statement from from a class I had last year. E::hm we said that many methods used in universities worldwide can be described as Western and provide little room for, for example, storytelling and spirituality. Do you agree?
L2: Yes yeah yeah no ehm () () () some () some classes are very, very structured and organised and I think that while you need to, you need to be – you know, you need to have some organisation () but you also need to have a little bit of flexibility in there that if you maybe wanna throw in a story or
(LE: mhm (positive))
L2: Ehm and I don’t () think () I can’t yeah – I don’t think that any of our classes ran over time and I think that we always covered the topic that we were meant to cover. So:: that little bit of flexibility () ehm fitted in ok. () Without me organising @for it to be fitted in@
=LE: Yeah yeah ((laughs)) Ok so do you think it’s problematic that ehm other classes don’t provide that flexibility?
L2: () It, it can be because it may::, it may mean that students don’t have time to e:hm express their thoughts and ideas. Ehm it may mean that there may be ehm an incident or an event that was relevant to the topic – that ehm it doesn’t allow for that discussion to happen. Mhm (positive) so I think ehm () yeah and it’s just a shame that we’re in a Western class room with the way the tables and chairs are are set up and ehm you know ideally you’d be sitting outside in the shade in a circle – said that if you’re in a circle there’s no leader
LE: Mhm (positive) ok yeah
L2: And everybody is equal () ehm including the teacher {Click here for analysis} and I think that’s why I sort of sat in the class cause ehm ehm I consider the students to to be my peers cause we’re all students.
  […]
LE: E::hm is there anything that could be done for other classes to ehm include more alternative methods, more flexibility?
L2: () () I, well, I think () it it depends on the size o::f ehm the classes and with this particular class I think there were over a hundred students [taking the class/in the lecture]. There were like five tutorials ehm () and () the the course coordinator is the one that would e:hm say that, you know, this is how- this is what I want you to discuss. But there was no structure in ehm in the way that the class was taught. Ehm but if it’s just a small class of like twenty students, go to the lecture, twenty students ehm I think there is () there is room there that () it’s- I think it’s easier ehm and that all the students get the same information whereas all these tutorials – I think it makes it very hard for the students to all get the same information ehm and I don’t know how you would overcome that. Ehm unless you were to bring in more structure () yeah
LE: Ok. E::hm () yeah that was, that was it from my questions. Ehm is there anything else you would like to say about the topic?
L2: Ehm () () () I enjoy teaching ehm and I think that ehm ehm () () And like I said I just, I love it because I’ll always be a student and I love learning from the other students ehm and listening and talking and sharing knowledge. Ehm I think the biggest issues that I have with teaching is that when students are doing a presentation if they’re presenting the wrong information () ehm I () am in dilemma whether to shame them – which is an Aboriginal expression, to shame them – and say ‘oh you’re wrong’ @(.)@
(LE: Yeah)
L2: Ehm or just to let it go and and talk to them later. But they’ve told the whole class some wrong information so ehm () In one particular class here I did actually pull a student up and and I think I did it nicely that ‘oh hang on a minute’ and () ehm but also hopefully the student understands that it’s important that () you do get the right information {Click here for analysis}
(LE: Definitely.)
L2: and that you share the right information. ()

[…]

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Table of Symbols Used in Transcriptions

Symbol Definition
LE: Lee Eisold, the researcher
L2, L3, S1, S2, S3: Lecturer 2 and 3, Students 1,2 and 3
(LE: mhm) interjection
=LE: speaking at the same time
() short pause
() () longer pause
&& unintelligible utterance
(text) uncertain transcription due to unclear recording
hyphen, separating different ideas/sentence parts
@text@ speaking while laughing
@(.)@ short laugh
ye::s word is stretched, the number of colons indicates the length of the stretch
[…] left-out passage
real- unfinished word
I love word is stressed
((laughs)) non-verbal utterances
[text] comments
mhm (positive) expression of approval
mhm (negative) expression of disapproval

(symbols are based on Aglaja Przyborski’s method and the transcription guidelines of Talk in Qualitative Social Research)

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Class 1: Lecture (13/10/2015)

This description is derived from notes taken during class, the university’s recording of the lecture and my memories of the session.

L1 begins this week’s class on leadership and activism by pointing out that ABC will be screening a documentary on Aboriginal activist John Maynard in November. After giving some general information about the discourse on Aboriginal activism, she describes the way in which a particular governor treated Aboriginal people and how an Aboriginal woman named Barrangaroo reacted to this behaviour. In order to tell the story of Barrangaroo, L1 refers to a particular marine about whom she also gives some information. {Click here for analysis} After talking about an argument Barrangaroo had with her husband, L1 compares their relationship to her own. She also notes that a site near Sydney harbour will soon be called Barrangaroo.

L1 then gives some more general information about Aboriginal activism, before turning to the story of Yagan, an Aboriginal man from the colonial past. As Barrangaroo as well as Yagan were already part of earlier lectures, L1 refers back to those sessions, reminding the students of the aspects which were already discussed. She then shows a video about the repatriation of Yagan’s remains which also introduces the discourse of Yagan as a hero. For a long time, L1 says, it was impossible to see him as a martyr because there officially never was an invasion. She then reads out a poem which connects Yagan to a recent topic in order to depict the attempt to bring colonial freedom fighter’s into contemporary life. {Click here for analysis}

She also again mentions William Cooper and his activism against Kristallnacht, showing a different video this time, before moving on to another campaign Cooper was part of. Again, she stresses the significance this has today. She then presents a number of other popular Aboriginal people from diverse backgrounds and from the past as well as the present. She talks about their actions and the criticism they had to face which was often linked to very common debates and issues.

Before ending the lecture, L1 says that she is happy to give short extensions for the essay which is due soon in cases of emergency.

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Class 1: Lecture (06/10/2015)

This description is derived from notes taken during class, the university’s recording of the lecture and my memories of the session.

L1 opens this week’s lecture by talking about the upcoming assignments for the class. As the staff involved in this course felt that an exam does not reflect the type of learning they want to convey, the final assessment will be a reflective one. Thus, personal interests and life experiences can be included in the assignment. {Click here for analysis} “You won’t often be asked to this in the university”, L1 says. The creator of this model of assignment is then introduced and presents the marking criteria. When L1 takes over again she stresses that the students can contact the creator at any time with questions.

After searching for the right file for a moment, L1 is ready to start the actual lecture on the topic of Aboriginal housing. While outlining the structure of today’s lecture, L1 mentions that she will show more audio-visual footage than she normally does in order to give the students a sense of the diversity of Aboriginal voices. She first gives some information about ideas of housing and the Aboriginal housing situation. Then she shows two videos presenting different opinions on a particular housing project. After every video L1 gives some more information underlining the view which was presented. She also uses the situation of her grand-parents as an example for the significance of this specific project.

The next aspect L1 discusses is the government’s plan to close remote communities. As she is running out of time, she tells the students to watch the two videos presenting opinions about this topic at home and moves on to putting the issues discussed into context. To do so, she gives a detailed description of an Aboriginal campaign which led to the first land being given back to Aboriginal people. As the lecture took a few minutes longer today, L1 thanks the students for their patience before she leaves.

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Class 1: Lecture (01/09/2015)

This description is derived from notes taken during class, the university’s recording of the lecture and my memories of the session.

This week’s lecture has the topic “Education is political!!”. After noticing that there are considerably fewer students present today, L1 quotes Oodgeroo Noonucaal and Freire in order to stress that education is indeed political. She then talks about her own experience while working for the Department of School Education and gives examples of opinions of some of the teachers she met in this frame. Afterwards she reads out some statements from the slides, adding further explanations about the current and former situation in schools.

When talking about education influenced by prejudices, L1 tells the students about an incident, which happened to her daughter when she was in high school. After describing how her daughter argued with the teacher about the terms ‘invasion’, ‘settlement’ and ‘propaganda’, she explains that it was a good situation for her daughter because she had the character and skills to be able to debate about the topic. However, in L1’s opinion, this is not the case for most Aboriginal children. This shows how teachers even if they are very concerned about not being racist might still be unable to teach in an inclusive way, L1 says.

She then explains that teachers often use Aboriginal students as a resource. While again this was good for her daughter who had the knowledge, it can lower the self-esteem of those students who do not know the answer. She was able to witness such a situation herself when participating in a NAIDOC week event at her daughter’s school.

L1 interrupts the lecture briefly to answer a question which has come up although it does not directly relate to the topic. She again uses her own experience to explain the situation in depth. Afterwards, she returns to the actual topic and gives another personal example. When she was in primary school she was asked by the teacher which her favourite traditional bush food was and answered that it was a particular kind of worm. Although the teacher tried to calm down the class, she was picked on for a long time for eating worms. When asked the same question again years later, she answered “fish” and was this time told that this did not count as traditional Aboriginal food. In conclusion, teachers have to be really careful how they treat Aboriginal students in class, L1 says. {Click here for analysis}

L1 now returns to the slides, reading out another statement and explaining it. She then shows a Youtube video explaining why it is important that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture is included in the school curriculum and how this should be done. Afterwards, she explains the curriculum in more detail, before presenting a model of Aboriginal learning. While doing so, she often uses the phrase “you know”. The next point L1 addresses is again linked to an example from her own experience. While working at the Department of School Education, she was often told that texts which include Aboriginal English should not be used because it is important to use a variety of English the students can later use in the workplace, although this is not the case for Shakespearean English either. L1 then uses another example from her daughter’s education to underline that what can be learned from a story is not connected to how old the story is or how well it reflects reality.

Next, L1 picks up the holocaust and the question “Why didn’t anyone say anything” as an example from the Australian curriculum. Australia, she says, had the only private protest against Kristallnacht which was organised by an Aboriginal man named William Cooper. This highlights the nationally and globally significant contributions Aboriginal people have made in the past. L1 shows a Youtube video about William Cooper before moving on to the next point.

She reads out a statement saying that old mathematical methods are not useful anymore today. Well, she jokes, that would make her happy because it would mean that “Pythagoras must go” as well. After outlining the steps of the scientific method of problem solving, L1 tells the students about a particular problem her son has solved in kindergarten using his tracking skills.

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Class 1: Lecture (25/08/2015)

This description is derived from notes taken during class, the university’s recording of the lecture and my memories of the session.

Today’s lecture is concerned with Aboriginal policy making. In the beginning, the lecturer (L1) apologises for her weak her voice caused by a cold and expresses her hope that she will nonetheless be able to hold the lecture. In the first part of the lecture, she mostly reads out the notes on the lecture slides, making small changes in sentence structures and adding short explanations and clarifications. After finishing her explanations, she frequently asks “ok?”. In order to explain the term ‘policy’, L1 does not only give official definitions but also includes people’s common perception, using phrases like “You know, sometimes we believe that…”.

L1 then introduces the representation of Aboriginal people in art as a helpful source to understand the impact of policies. She shows several examples, describes them, points out aspects she sees as particularly interesting, draws conclusions and asks the students to be critical. Afterwards L1 switches to the present, more precisely to names of electorates and routes still existing today. She talks in detail about an incident of oppression surrounding the mapping-out of Western Australia. {Click here for analysis}This is a good example to see how a hero discourse can stand against legal evidence of discrimination, she says. It also shows that many claims to change names often have a very profound reason behind them. L1 also adds an example from the local area of the university. She then asks if the students have ever watched the film The Tracker, using it as a starting point to talk about images of Aboriginal people in chains.

To show how colonial and Aboriginal histories are intertwined, L1 talks about marriage rules in the past, showing the hierarchy the British brought with them. She reads out a politician’s speech on a play, which was based on a real relationship between a British man and an Aboriginal woman, to address the aspect of people with mixed heritage and then gives more examples. Afterwards, she plays a song by an Aboriginal singer talking about Christian rules to underline that one should not generalise. She then presents the view of three people from public life on Aboriginal policies by quoting them directly.

To conclude the lecture, L1 gives an overview of steps to be taken to achieve a more just policy making, again quoting a number of people and playing another song. In the end, she gives the students guidelines for researching a policy, stressing the importance of always going back to the original source by comparing interpretation to a game of Chinese whispers. Before whishing everyone a good week, L1 cheers because her voice lasted for the entire lecture.

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Class 1: Lecture (27/10/2015)

This description is derived from a participant observation conducted in Lecture 1 on the 27th October.

Today’s lecture is treating the topic of reconciliation. After a short introduction outlining the history of reconciliation, L1 asks the question: What is reconciliation? She does not answer it right away, however, but first talks about the picture which is included on the slide. It is an artwork done by school children, she explains, and what she loves about it is that the people on it have really weird feet and no noses. She laughs about this before returning to the question.

To explain the history of the term ‘reconciliation’, L1 first tells the students what can be found online if one is looking for images about reconciliation the way she has in preparation for this session. The fact that the first images which come up had to do with Christianity made her think about how many Human Rights related topics come from a background of faith. After talking about the role of Christian churches in the recent past as opposed to the colonial past, she addresses the issue of the separation of church and state. For this, she refers to the judges on the panel of the Mabo case and presents two of them in detail. When someone asks a question, L1 repeats it for those listening to the recording before answering it. The student asks again and L1 answers, adding her own assumptions where she is not sure. A different student then adds an idea to this on which L1 comments.

Turning back to the slides, L1 lists the members of the first Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation and briefly outlines their background and contribution. She then reads out the preamble of the Act of Legislation for reconciliation before giving additional information. She proceeds with the next slides in the same way. While talking about Reconciliation Australia, L1 opens their website which she describes as “really worth having a look at”. She opens the tab about the RAP (Reconciliation Action Plan) when she reaches this topic and reads out the definition of the project, which can be found on the page. She then explains it in more detail and gives examples of actions taken in the frame of the RAP.

L1 now shows a video about the extent of reconciliation and gives some more information about the work Reconciliation Australia has done connected to the curriculum. Something else which is worth noticing, she says, is that Reconciliation Australia was really good at using social media in order to reach people. That made it more public and accountable.

L1 now turns to the RAP of the university in order to explain the process and structure of RAPs. She opens the document, reads out some lines, scrolls through the pages and gives extra information. She then explains how the knowledge about reconciliation and RAPs can help the students when they are applying for a job. They could find out whether the company they want to work with has an RAP and then address this topic in a job interview. As an example for other institutions’ RAPs, L1 shows a video made by a company to present their RAP.

Afterwards, L1 presents Close the Gap as another campaign. She points out a video by Oxfam about this topic for which the link can be found on the slide. L1’s further explanations on Close the Gap also include the criticism which is often expressed by Aboriginal people. When she notices that the time is almost up, she comes to an end very quickly, simply inviting the students again to look at the Oxfam video and the Reconciliation Australia website.

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Interview Guides

Interview guide for lecturers and tutors

Open questions:
– Would you like to tell me from which Aboriginal nation you are and what your cultural background means to you in your job? This is optional, you don’t have to do this.
– What, in your opinion, is the most effective form of teaching and learning? Which methods should be used?
– What, in your opinion, is the most important aspect about how you teach a class/our class?
– Which methods do you use in class/(for course coordinators: are used in the course, e.g. for assessment)? Is using these methods a decision you make consciously?

Hypotheses-directed questions:
– (If I believe to have seen a method used in class which he/she does not mention, I will ask about it. E.g. What about X? Or: In one session, when you talked about Y, you did Z. Would you consider this a method?)
Are there differences between how you teach our class and other classes?
Would you say that your classes are different from other classes by other Aboriginal or by non-Aboriginal teachers?

Confrontational question:
Many methods used in universities worldwide can be described as “Western” and provide little room for, for example, storytelling or spirituality. Do you agree? Do you think this is problematic? What could be done?

Is there anything else you would like to say?

 

Interview guide for students

Open questions:
– What connection do you have with Aboriginality (e.g. interest, friends, working with Aboriginal people in the future etc.)?
(If the student identifies as Aboriginal:) Would you like to tell me from which Aboriginal nation you are and what your cultural background means to you, especially concerning situations at university? This is optional, you don’t have to do this.
How would you describe the way knowledge is conveyed in the lecture/the tutorial? How would you describe the way you learn in this course?

Hypothesis-directed questions:
– Do you notice any differences between our course (lecture and tutorial) and other courses you took or are taking? To which degree/faculty do your other courses belong?
(If no differences are mentioned but I have already identified some between this course and my other courses, I will carefully share my impression and ask about the interviewee’s opinion)
Do the differences make it easier or harder for you to learn? Or is there no difference? /(or, if the interviewee does not see any differences:) Do you think it is easy to learn and remember aspects from the lecture and the tutorial? Why do you think this is/is not the case?
Does the learning experience in this course feel any different? If yes, how and why?
Do you like the differences/how the course is taught? Why/why not?

Confrontational question:
– Many methods used in universities worldwide can be described as “Western” and provide little room for, for example, storytelling or spirituality. Do you agree? Do you think this is problematic? What could be done? Do you think this has anything to do with our class?

Is there anything else you would like to say?

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Class 2: Tutorial (03/09/2015)

This description is derived from notes taken during class and my memories of the session.

After this week’s Talking Circle presentations, L3 praises one of the students for creating slides which were visually strong. That was very good for visual learners, he says. Consequently, a student asks for a visual representation of the UN bodies so that the connections between them become clearer. L3 tries to draw a diagram on the board but immediately admits that this will probably not be very helpful as the UN’s structure is simply too complex.

Some more questions about NGOs and the UN are asked. As L3 refers to a certain reference in his answer, he also talks about the author’s background. Afterwards he picks up the reflection questions from the lecture and asks us to discuss them in groups. Although discussions are lively across the room, no one wants to share his or her opinion with the whole class afterwards. Thus, L3 who has been walking around during the group discussions mentions some aspects he heard earlier and, hence, makes people talk eventually.

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Class 2: Lecture (03/09/2015)

This description is derived from notes taken during class and my memories of the session.

As today’s lecture treats Indigenous experiences defending Human Rights, L3 begins with a revision of the definition of Human Rights. When stating that everyone is entitled to them, he tells us that his father used to say that even the blackbird outside the window had Human Rights. Throughout the lecture he often asks the students whether they remember a certain detail and sometimes gets help from one of them. After approximately one third of the lecture, L3 asks a reflection question to think about while he goes on.

When he talks about a certain UN body he tells the class that he has been to one of its meetings. He describes the atmosphere as very friendly and open-minded but also points out that it is very competitive and difficult to get one’s voice heard. He has also attended a different meeting on UN level which he repeatedly calls “very interesting”. He explains the seating order of the different countries’ governments and indigenous representatives to show their different attitudes.

When the topic of NGOs comes up, L3 tells the class about a friend who created an NGO to underline how much work and luck it includes and how difficult it can be to gain status with the UN. He finally finishes the lecture with another reflection question.

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